Ariola questions Esposito on fifth firefighter impact data

I'd like to discuss the fifth firefighter and the deployment of the fifth firefighter on engine companies has long been a priority for labor and a point of ongoing discussion between the council and the administration.

The operational case is straightforward.

More personnel on scene means faster knockdown times, fewer injuries, and better outcomes for New Yorkers.

So what does the data show about the fifth firefighters'effects on fire suppression outcomes, including time to knock down a fire, firefighter injuries, and civilian casualties?

Thank you for that question.

We do not have specific data that shows the difference of operations with four firefighter engines and five firefighter engines.

When we break down our fire reports that talk about civilian injuries and firefighter injuries,

We don't have the ability to differentiate between the two.

While we certainly welcome additional resources, the ability to stretch and operate hose lines is increased and better and more effective with five firefighters.

Than with four.

Okay, so would it be safe to say that if a fire happens and the first due arrives and they have only four members on that rig and that fire is out of control, the

They have to wait for the next second due to come, which would have the fifth firefighter on it, before they get water on a fire.

Is that correct to say?

The fifth firefighter speeds up the stretching of the hose lines and putting water on the fire.

Water doesn't get on that fire until that second rig arrives.

Is that true?

Not necessarily, but it's...

Now, now, is it true?

Not, not, if that first engine stretches the hose...

line and they're ready to operate, they're going to operate.

It happens faster with the fifth firefighter.

Right.

So if it happens faster, what does that mean?

Does that mean that the fire doesn't spread more quickly?

We would theoretically put the fire out quicker, yes.

It would mean that lives would be in less danger.

Yes, we'd put the fire out quicker.

All right, good.

So I think that's a pretty good analysis.

So have you conducted any internal analysis or pilot of the fifth firefighter deployment?

And if so, what were the results internally?

Have you discussed?

We don't have any formal studies done with it, but anecdotally it would lead to quicker hose line stretches and quicker extinguishment of the fire.

Thank you.

And what is the current average response time by borough, and does the data show meaningful disparities between boroughs that a targeted fifth firefighter deployment could address?

So we do have the average response time to structural fires so far this year.

For Manhattan, 4 minutes, 39 seconds.

Bronx, 4 minutes, 58 seconds.

Brooklyn, 4 minutes, 10 seconds.

Queens, 5 minutes, 2 seconds.

And Staten Island, 5 minutes, 5 seconds.

And what was the second part of that question?

It was, was the current average response time per borough and does the data show meaningful disparity between boroughs that a targeted fifth firefighter deployment could address?

That's one of our points of discussion about the fifth firefighter.

We don't know.

We don't know what impact it would have on response times because it's putting another firefighter on a seat of an engine that's already responding.

But it does put water on a fire sooner if the first responding rig has a fifth firefighter, correct?

Correct, but that apparatus would theoretically arrive at the same time.

Correct.

So the more apparatuses that have a fifth firefighter on it, the quicker water gets on a fire and the ability to cause that fire to not spread reduces and lives can be saved.

I would agree with that.

Geographical need, is there a targeted deployment?

I think you just gave us kind of what the percentages were per borough.

The discussion about the fifth firefighter is in the Bronx, is in engine companies in the Bronx.

Okay, and can you provide a breakdown of fire incidences by borough and by engine company over the past three fiscal years?

Yes, I have for all engine companies throughout the city, we have the breakdown for fiscal years 23, 24, and 25

of the number of structural and non-structural fires they've responded to.

And, you know, as you can imagine, it's not evenly distributed.

We have some very, very busy companies, and we have some not-so-busy companies.

Right.

So right now, the fifth firefighter is in what areas?

So we have, currently we have 20 engine companies that have five firefighters, and that is distributed throughout the city

in areas that have the types of buildings that generally require longer hose line stretches.

Okay, so what are the specific concentrated areas right now?

Well, they're not with the fifth firefighter.

They're spread throughout the city.

Every borough has some engines with five firefighters.

So do you think that the fifth firefighter should be concentrated?

Do you think it works better?

Does that model work better than having them sporadically placed unevenly throughout the boroughs?

But they're placed in areas where their building stock requires those longer hose line stretches.

Okay.