Marte questions TWU on worker classification and union membership

Thank you, Chair.

I just want to state for the record that before we introduced this bill, my office reached out to the union, TWU, to set up a meeting.

And I also, in that email, said I'm willing to visit the stables and meet the horse owners.

And we never got an appointment set up.

And so, you know, we tried doing that olive branch to have the discussion before the introduction of the bill, but it was never accepted on the other side.

I just wanted to say that because I feel like some of the allegations could be thrown at us inappropriately.

I have a question for the union.

For horse carriage drivers who do not own the business or medallion and are hired to drive for someone else, are they classified as W-2 employees or 1099 independent contractors?

And if they are employees, who are their employer?

All right, I'll answer this as our shop steward and the representative of our members.

We have both W-2 and 1099 employees and independent contractors.

We are some of the last truly independent contractors because, you know, the individual carriage driver

makes an individual deal with the carriage owner over what percentage of the trip card the carriage driver keeps before they hand the remainder of the take for the day to the owner.

So there are drivers who will not work with certain owners because they don't like the percentage.

There are drivers who will not work with a carriage because they don't like the horse.

There are carriage drivers who, I mean, we've set when we go on vacation.

We are two independent contractors.

There are some W-2 employees that work for carriage owners that own multiple carriages, so they're more of a fleet, more than just the single owner-operator or single owner.

And then we do have a lot of owner-operators in the business.

I have a follow-up question.

Who pays the dues to TW Local 100 in connection with the carriage trade?

Is it the higher carriage driver, medallion owners, or their owner-operators?

It's all of them.

The drivers and the owners all pay union dues.

The drivers, if you don't own a medallion, you don't pay as high a number.

do structure every month, but we are all here together because you guys are management.

You know, you guys are the ones that set the terms of our employments.

You set the terms of when we get to go to work under what conditions.

You set how much we can charge.

So you are management, and our union here is here to represent us in our negotiations with you and the New York City Administrative Code.

That's our contract.

Okay, I have two quick questions.

How many do paying carriage drivers does the union currently have?

And you mentioned earlier that the average salary is $65,000.

Is that through a guaranteed salary or is it an hourly wage negotiated through a contract?

Well, again, like I just told you, we negotiate with the...

Carriage owners, you know, do I get 40% of the ride and keep the tips?

We always keep the tips.

The drivers always get the tips, whoever's doing the driver, the owner, or the driver.

Is it 50%?

Does the driver get to keep the first ride of the day?

These are little small businesses.

And, you know, so it's not a wage job.

You know, today, if we weren't...

here, you know, we would have been suspended because of the heat.

So it's not a salary.

This is not an hourly wage job.

This is a way of life with horses in small businesses.

And in this case, the workers own the means of production.

So I own a horse.

I work for somebody who owns a carriage.

I run his small family business.

He has horses.

He owns the medallion.

There are stable owners here.

They own the stables, but they're also workers.

So we own the horses, we own the carriages, we own the medallions, we own the stables.

And that's who we are.

Thank you.

Madam Chair, can I answer?

Sure.

Councilmember Marte.

Councilmember Marte, TWU, we've reached out to every council member to visit the stable.

Some of them do get a chance to, and that offer still stands if you're ready to come by.

I'll follow up on my email.

Thank you.

Also, I would like to note, I think there was a discussion about there being a delay in the introduction of the bill so that you could meet with us, but also our union is also engaged in contract negotiations with the MTA.

And our other members are working without a contract now.

So there was a request to delay, but that bill was introduced on schedule to coincide with other legislation in Philadelphia.

Okay.

May I say one thing?

Go ahead.

I'm sorry, may I say one thing?

Sorry.

Yes.

Thank you.

Regarding the invitations, there have been a couple of council members that have visited.

Councilman Epstein did visit, and we met and spent, I think, probably close to an hour together.

You seemed really intrigued, really interested.

You were focused.

I explained to you what I look for in a horse to make sure that they are healthy.

Do you remember this, sir?

Whether they're healthy, whether they're alert.

Voices standing in the back of the stall not facing you.

They're stressed when they're looking at you with their ears forward, when they're breathing normally, how we take heart rates.

You listen to everything.

I showed you that there was manure and shavings on the stall during the time of day when we cleaned stalls.

I said, once you leave, this will all be swept.

The stalls were clean.

There was fresh water.

There was hay in every stall.

You listened.

I think we agreed that despite, and you made it very clear your stance, and I appreciate that, and we can agree to disagree.

But at the same time, I asked you to at least appreciate or understand what I was trying to get across to you.

And you said you did.

And then you crucified me the next day.

With your approach, you showed a picture of a healthy horse in a stall that is in jail.

I was very naive walking into that because I do believe that information is information.

And you failed me on that one.

I think you failed the industry.

You did not represent us properly.

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

You're going to go next anyway.

I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't part of a condition that we were going to introduce the bill if you didn't meet with us.

We reached out, I think, more than a month before our intended introduction, and it wasn't in line with what other cities have done.

As you mentioned, Philadelphia has banned horse carriages from their city, and that just was a coincidence, and we're willing to follow their lead now.

Okay, I don't want to have, I don't want back and forth here because we'll be here.

All day.

So you want to just take it outside of here, that's fine.

Councilmember Epstein, you're next.